Tuesday, March 22, 2011

A Follow Up

Since last post was damned to be dominated by the background information, this post will once again concentrate on the character power progression (CPP) itself. I think there is some merit to write it down once again. And I am honestly interested in what you don't like about it; simulation- or gameplay-related.

The simulation-aspect idea behind the system is that the role your character plays is defined by the equipment he wields. The gameplay idea behind this is that this allows one to copy Eve Online CPP and paste it into a 2D fantasy MMORPG; with just a few changes.
The only major property I do not want to copy/paste is the CPP while being offline. You should get better at your role while doing fun things while wearing the role-defining equipment.

But what makes an Eve Online-like CPP so desireable in the first place?
Answer: It allows a brilliant mix of vertical and horizontal progression! See below


The CPP
  • offers almost endless character power progression,
  • while keeping the players within a small intervall of power,
  • while allowing meaningful progress with every play session, 
  • while making characters competetive within a short time (high accessability)
  • while allowing a non-mandatory(!) long grind to create elite characters (=slightly better than competetive),
  • while always encouraging exploration of another role,
  • while keeping characters in specific situations quite different from each other,
  • while preventing boredom better than any locked-in class or skill system,
  • while being more compatible with the simulation-aspect than other class or skill systems,
  • while being very flexible when it comes to group content that requires a specific role combination,
  • while being less vulnerable to balance problems than even a locked-in class system,
  • while cutting down on the number of (required) twinks; thus cutting down on anonymity and other disadvantages of twinks (e.g. they weaken the emotional bond with the main character).
  • And it is very easy to expand later on by the devopler.

Do you agree on that? Should I elaborate on some points? What disadvantages do you see that I overlooked?

    15 comments:

    1. while keeping the players within a small intervall of power

      If, and only if, they all started playing the game together. It is today a major competitive disadvantage for EVE that some players simply refuse to join the game now, knowing that it is impossible for them to "catch up".

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    2. Thanks for the comment Tobold. I agree that this is a perceived problem in Eve for some players, including myself.

      In the proposed system you are as competetive as any other character within 50 hours. That is about 15% of the time it took to level 1-60 in classic WoW! Diminishing returns take care of the hardcore/casual difference.

      The point you make is completely emotional and objectively quite wrong. But that doesn't make it disappear, of course. It is still a very valid concern that must be dealt with - by delveloper communication.

      In fact, this is a much bigger problem for WoW-like class systems. It is the reason why Blizzard is compressing the leveling content with every expansion! They don't want new players to feel like being too far away from their friends - some 250 hours nowadays. The downside is that skipping 50% of the quests makes the leveling rather hard to enjoy. So much indeed, that they needed to rework the entire leveling content last expansion.

      My point is this:
      Within any system that allows CPP, the problem you describe exists. It needs to be dealt with. How serious it is, is determined by the time that is needed to become competetive for a new player. In the proposed system that is about 50 hours /played. In most other MMORPGs it is much more.

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    3. The thing that strikes me about Eve is that while skills do clearly improve your performance, they mainly act as a gateway to actually being able to use the gear. Certain ships and modules just aren't available unless you have the required skills, while others require so much power or cpu that you can't realistically fit them before a certain skill level.

      The other part that is wholly different from most mmos is that you can buy (or build) everything with in game currency, and if it gets blown up, it's gone. I actually really like this as a mechanic, but I don't think it works well with normal fantasy tropes.

      Now, my question is how would you merge your ideas with a fantasy setting. The immediate thing that bugs me about letting fantasy characters have access to a broad range of abilities is that, while it is good from a gameplay point of view, it breaks immersion in a fantasy setting. One idea I have is that your "character" is the leader of a small band of adventurers, or an army unit, or a mage coven, etc. You progress your character by sending out your subordinates on missions. You would actually play the game through the persona of each of these subordinates, and as they gain experience, your leader gains the ability to recruit more and different types of allies. If you start as the leader of a group of mages for example, it takes some time and training before you can recruit a warrior. Each of these allies would have their own experience and gear, and if they died, then they are dead. The use of "portal stones" would of course let you switch to whichever one of your allies you wanted to use at a given moment, just not in combat.

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    4. Oh, and I would allow the trading of characters, so long as the person you are trading them to has skills required to use them.

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    5. Kobeathris, the idea is that your equipment determines your role. That is, shield+plate+sword activates certain skills that affect your play. A dagger+leather armor activates other skills. These skills can overlap.

      Many combinations are possible. Some skills can require very expensive armor. Some can require very cheap armor.

      Combined with an almost realistic weigth limit, most armor will be left with the dead and eventually despawn, because you cannot carry 2x plate armor in your backpack. The almost realistic weigth limit is an essential gameplay feature here.

      You write
      "The immediate thing that bugs me about letting fantasy characters have access to a broad range of abilities is that, while it is good from a gameplay point of view, it breaks immersion in a fantasy setting."

      The plan is to make gains in some skill groups reduce the skills in other skill groups. For example, gaining points in spell-casting skills, reduces your melee combat skills.

      By dividing the skills into such groups you can prevent players from becoming too similar or being capable of everything. But the players can still turn from e.g. a mage to a warrior and vice versa if they want.

      If you want to know more read the last few posts ;)

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    6. Eve's offline training keeps people paying when not actually playing the game (like me at the moment).

      As games are also businesses it could be tough to convince your producer why you wouldn't want this.

      What's more, it allows people to play passively which is a key factor in people paying for multiple accounts. I don't have stats to prove it but I'm convinced Eve has amongst the highest spend per person playing even with some people playing it free. It's axiomatic that to play in nullsec you need alts - for cynos, for spying, for moving in Empire and so on.

      Next, balance problems don't go away. This is because of scrub mentality. Rift shows us this with forums full of Rogues whining about healers being overpowered even though they can be healers. They don't WANT to be healers even if it's their overpowered option.

      Also people will always whine about balance when they lose because the alternative is admitting they're just not very good.

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    7. As games are also businesses it could be tough to convince your producer why you wouldn't want this.

      Because people stop having an interest in the game. I have stopped playing Eve in the past, telling myself that I'm gonna gain skills anyway. A few days later I forgot to think about it at all and a week later I lost interest in my character. A day later I unsubbed.

      Also, the system I propose is not exactly like Eve Online. All roles can be learnt in about 50 hours /played. In Eve some roles can only be learnt by paying a separate 'learning account'. This may add to revenue in specific cases, but, generally, it is bad game design and separates players emotionally from their characters.

      On balance:
      People always complain about balance. The maximum nunmber of complains would probably be achieved if a game were perfectly balanced - whatever that means ;)

      What you can do as a developer is to create a system locks people into skill combinations - which is exactly what the class system does. I know you read Elder Game some weeks ago.

      However, simply locking people into skills forever is not perfect, because people start quitting your game if you screw up (and you will).

      The optimum is a system with some stickyness and locked-in skill combinations. Whch is exactly what the proposal is about.

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    8. Part of eve problem know realize is lack of clear communication and presentation to for new players how system works. I played eve in beta and tried 2 free trials and I still dont know how exactly it pans out at higher levels

      So perception is older characters are just hugely better than new ones. This is pretty much universal among those who never played eve (e.g. potential new players) -and perception is reality.

      I do know that character with 1 year has significant advantages over 1 month old one even if flying frigate. For me 1 year is just way too long - I can accept noticeable gap between brand new character and 1 month old, but not 1 month vs 1year old. I can play hardcore new game for couple of weeks to cap. If its not enough (e.g. korean grinders) - I simply wont play.

      Any ways more on topic:

      What I like -small gap between newer player and vets. Allows do the content together.


      Every skill has associated actions. Exercising these actions improve the skill. Some more, some less


      Not so sure about this part.Skill ups are really boring when done based on action. (UO/Darkfall/Wurm).

      You have option to make it really easy (basically kill mob -get skill ups) - and then throttle it like you proposed with capped daily gains.

      If you go this way I think its pretty good -it prevents speeding up trough the curve (can't become more powerful than x in certain amount of time - good for accountability systems and planned progression treadmills)

      To become 80% effective at a role requires about 50 hours /played if you focus on it. To become perfect requires 1000 hours of focused play


      I'd change that to 90% effective with 250 hours , 95% with 500. last 5% 1000. ~200 hours should be length of tutorialish/quest' ish content for new player

      Reason is : 10% is gap player notice and would be complaining .At 20% it would be just pure rage. 5% is something most people can glance over.

      Also I think system has to be fleshed out some more

      -What kind of roles there are ? In combat? crafting? others?

      -what kind of skills there are?

      -is everyone can acquire any skill, potentially getting them all in long run?

      -How much equipment and gear matters ? How hard is it to obtain

      -how respecs are handled?


      Also people will always whine about balance when they lose because the alternative is admitting they're just not very good.


      Rift has balance issues. Noticing them is not "whining". Its been proven most players choose archetype based on the attractiveness not power (min/maxers being the exception).

      If your balance is so bad that many choices are gimped players wont simply play another class (because they choose it not for power first place) they either suck it up or quit (most likely ). Bad for business.

      In case of rift its really bad. Whole callings are obsolete, not just souls (rogue calling for example is pretty much junk at level cap, save for highly specialized utility roles)

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    9. Thanks, Max. The system needs to be fleshed much, much more. I am interested on comments on the very basic idea ;)

      -if everyone can acquire any skill, potentially getting them all in long run?
      That is the point of groups of skills that can only improve by removing points from other groups (e.g. magic, melee combat). Only a handful of groups are thought of right now.

      ---
      -How much equipment and gear matters ? How hard is it to obtain

      Basic gear (80%) is rather cheap. Good (90%) gear is expensive. Really good gear (100%) is extremely expensive.

      But prices are location-specific in a world without teleport. The harder something is to transport the more expensive it is far away from the main market hubs.

      ---
      -how respecs are handled?
      Unnecessary. You can switch from magic to combat if you want. It is a lengthy process, however. You might want to use a twink.
      Otherwise, you can accumulate the ability to fulfill all roles withijn a group, which are many. To fulfill them to maximum efficiency (100% instead of 80%), will be impossible within a reasonable time frame (like 10 years).

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    10. One last point about Rift:
      Rift is fun for leveling. Their talent tree system, however, will either need to be changed until it is useless, or any WoW-like endgame content will fail.

      Rift seems to be one more example of a WoW-like MMORPG that didn't enjoyed much thought about its endgame.

      However, Rift is still fun during leveling, and will have an impact on the industry.

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    11. I haven't played Rift, but I have read about the soul system. I'm just curious, why you don't think it would work for end game content?

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    12. Kobeathris, it is too hard to balance, unless you lock-in players more into their classes. But if you do that, you remove the one advantage the system is all about.

      Rift tries to use a CPP system that doesn't allow perfect balancing. And they seems to try to combine it with WoW-style endgame that is highly dependend on balance.

      Looking at what kind of balance problems WoW had and has with their much-easier to balance system, it is unreasonable to assume that Trion is actually able to succeed where the 1 billion $ WoW team struggled.

      Combined with the player-exspectations that WoW has set - especially for Rift players - I can only conclude that Triono will fail with endgame.

      But I'd love be proven wrong!

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    13. I dunno, again, speaking with no experience, what's the real problem if there is a lack of balance?

      Actually, the discussions on your blog and on Tobold's have me thinking that, more than anything else, end game content is held back by the boss fight design. Problems with the trinity; boss fight issue. Problems with Balance; boss fight issue. In boss fights, generally CC, AOE, and burst DPS don't matter. If they actually did matter, what is "balanced" would become a much wider grey area.

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    14. What's your position on whether CPP is entirely toon-centric vs embedded context (eg. guild or village or community)?

      I do see you mention CPP is heavily influenced by gear, but is gear personally accumulated (a la DIKU loot drops), or is gear a function of the community/guild?

      Would it be possible for a late comer to the game start with better gear available, more training opportunities, etc (as compared to the early pioneers), simply by nature of the evolved game community/economy (and specifically not due to the rich uncle/twink relationship)?

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    15. What's your position on whether CPP is entirely toon-centric vs embedded context (eg. guild or village or community)?

      In some way the CPP is toon-centric by definition :).
      However, the goal has to be to move the focus of the players achievement-desire towards his community as much as possible. The CPP is an (important) crutch to make players feel engaged in the game right from the start.
      There need to be sophisticated tools to enable communitied to hire new players.
      Mission is accomplished when players don't care that much about the progress of their char and more about the progress of their community.

      ---
      I do see you mention CPP is heavily influenced by gear, but is gear personally accumulated (a la DIKU loot drops), or is gear a function of the community/guild?

      Your gear-level is what you can sustain on your char. If you are near market hubs, gear can be sustained by being financially sucessful. Either due to classic PvE (robing mobs of their belongings), or due to trade, or due to PvP.

      A note on playing bandit:
      This cannot be easy and has to be a positive-sum game for the traders, thus a negative sum game for the bandits!
      Otherwise, there weren't any traders and thus there couldn't be bandits. However, if you are part of a highly organised and skilled team, you might be able to find financial success in playing bandit.

      If you are farther away from market hubs it is still partly a financial challenge, but also becomes a logistical challenge to get the gear to where you need it. To do this, you will proably need to depend on a community of some sort.


      ---
      Would it be possible for a late comer to the game start with better gear available, more training opportunities, etc (as compared to the early pioneers), simply by nature of the evolved game community/economy (and specifically not due to the rich uncle/twink relationship)?

      As with any game with a player driven community, there is a phase at the beginning during which the economy wobbles into balance. Once balance is reached it will hopefully be somewhat stable. The balance might change with future additions. Of course, nobody can keep you from giving gold to your twink. Also, it is encouraged to support new players you hire for your community.

      Gold will play a role, as does player skill and time investment. For you, individually, your community is supposed to play a rather large role.

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